Thursday, September 4, 2008

Socrates’ argument:
Socrates is right, and it is better to suffer wrong than to wrong someone else.
“Pay attention. then, as they say. It’s an excellent explanation. I expect you’ll think that what I’m about to tell you is just a story, but to my mind it does explain things, since it is, as far as I’m concerned, the truth.” pg129
“It’s completely irrational, and a sign of sheer cowardice, to fear the mere fact of death, but the same cannot be said for fear of injustice, since arriving in Hades with one’s soul riddled with wrongdoings is the ultimate evil.” pg 129
“He doesn’t know whose soul it is; in fact, he might well get hold of the soul of the king of Persia or some other king or potentate and notice that it’s riddled with defects—scourged and covered in the scars which ever dishonest and unjust action has imprinted on it, utterly crippled by lies and arrogance and warped by a truth-free diet—and he’d also see that the promiscuity, sensuality, brutality, and self-indulgence of his behaviour has thoroughly distorted the harmony and beauty of his soul.” pg 131
“…when Rhadamanthys gets hold of someone like that, he doesn’t even know his name or his background; all he knows is that he’s a bad man.” pg 133


Callicles’ argument:
Socrates is wrong and uses words to confuse people into believing anything he says.
“…where I think Polus was at fault was in agreeing with you that doing wrong is more contemptible than suffering wrong. It was this admission of his which enabled you to tie him up in logical knots and muzzle him…” pg 65
“I don’t know how you do it, Socrates, but you twist every single one of our arguments until it’s back to front.”

My own comments:
I did not like this particular reading. Callicles does not seem to be raising any real argument, merely attempting to discredit Socrates. Socrates in return seems to be antagonizing Callicles by using points raised in the discussion he began with Gorgias and continued with Polus to continue the argument that ended his conversation with Polus: that it is better to suffer harm than to cause harm to others. That having been said, it seems that we could have done without this final section entirely. On the other hand, it is quite possible that Plato used this last section to allow Socrates to make a point with which Plato agreed, and seemingly which Plato considered extremely important. He could probably have achieved this by cutting out the lines by Callicles altogether.

2 comments:

Anonymous said...

Doesn't Callicles make the points that you brought up fairly early on in the discussion? I wonder if the first passage where Polus is referred to is an indication fo where Callicles is going and what argument he is going to be defending, but not the substance of the argument.

Anonymous said...

Some more thoughts (occupational hazard)...to the extent that Callicles doesn't raise any more arguments, why might that be? Where does he stand on the issue of "might makes right"?